Jon Zerivitz | Patrick Rife | the Pixilated Podcast

hello and welcome to another episode of the Pixilated Podcast I am your host Patrick Rife if this is your first time here welcome we are excited to have you here checking out our interviews listening to to some of the things that we have to say if you are a dedicated listener thank you for coming back so guys Season 3 has been really fun as you know we've been focused on splitting the difference between kind of ideating content where we talk about things that we think photo booths could be cool for and then we've been spending a lot of time talking with event professionals who work in the little nooks and crannies the events world that we find really interesting and frankly deserve a little bit more attention that they get if you have tuned in in the last two or three episodes you know that we've started to change the format just slightly because I wanted to start to really put on a pedestal some of our customers some Pixilated customers that are using our products and from a best in class perspective and there are definitely some customers that we have that are exceptionally effective at using our tools to really amazing and so today is going to be no different we're gonna be talking with Joh Zerivitz. John is has been sidestep with Pixilated for a long time actually our our our companies are almost identical in age certainly in year but pretty close in in date as well John is responsible for the Union Craft Brewing brand he has partners I am not trying to undercut their representation here but that being said John's been my main guy for a really long time we have had the pleasure of powering their events with Pixilated experiences all along so we have things that line up with year three for both of us in year five for both of us in year seven and year 10 so that being said we're gonna have a chat with John today we're gonna talk a lot about hospitality the the the guest experience as as we are responsible for helping people have a great time at events so is John and making sure that people have great times when they visit his brewery and and and come into the whole giant world that is Union Collective so Joh Zerivitz welcome to Pixilated podcast thanks Patrick good to be here gas you up a little bit there Jon seriously you know we're such fans of the Union Craft brand here at Pixilated you know that there is no lack of love so thank you for taking the time this is a very colleague oriented kind of podcast so it's not so much for consers it's a lot of people that are in the trenches doing it a lot of events people and one of the things that I think is really valuable from a professional perspective is when people talk about what they're doing and how they're doing it what they're accomplishing and their hunches and all that stuff and that's what I really was hoping to talk about a little bit like on this podcast we have no doubt mentioned the photo trailer at Union Craft Brewing a multitude of time so some of our listeners are gonna be familiar with this apparition if you will but before we we talk about that I really wanna talk about creating an experience which you guys have done you know you did it amazingly in the old space and then you scale that up in such tremendous ways in the new space but before we get into all of that why don't you just kind of give everybody like a a bit of a quick kind of forward on who you are and how you've gotten to where you are today sure so yeah so I'm John Zaravis I am the co founder and Creative Directorate union and in a previous life I was a corporate graphic designer and beer lover kind of on the side as a hobbyist and I've been home brewing a little bit as well as entrenching myself in the Baltimore beer scene as it was 15 or so years ago and over the years the beer aspect and interest grew and I was not super happy in my previous career and I was looking around for kind of a next move and I've always been a bit of a risk taker in life and had been looking around at the beer landscape in Baltimore and and a brewery had not opened in Baltimore City in 30 years a production brewery in 30 years before union did there had been some brew pubs you know restaurants with small breweries in them but not a true production brewery meanwhile like craft beer was exploding all across the country and Maryland was just really behind the trend so luck would have it that I some like minded partners and the three of us decided to open a brewery in Barber and it didn't it's probably about a year first kind of the napkin sketches and Max's Tap House until we had rented our original space down on Union Avenue and Woodbury and you know our whole thing was not only is beer an amazing egalitarian product that everybody can enjoy but also having something being made right in your backyard something that you can be proud of something that you can take to somebody who doesn't live here and put that in front of them and say hey this is something that we make here in Baltimore and we knew that that was powerful and that we could really kind of bring communities together based around this local manufacturing and and so in 2011 we signed the deal on our first space and by that following smer early 2012 the smer of 2012 we produced Duck Pen Pal Ale which still stands as our flagship beer kind of has become a Baltimore icon which something I'm really proud of and and now so you know we started on this in this small 1,000 square foot space down on Union Avenue and about six years later we purchased this enormous hundred and forty five thousand square foot warehouse that was a former Sears warehouse and transformed it into what we call the Union Collective which not only houses our brewery but also about a dozen other local Baltimore based businesses and you know it just kind of pushes our mission further to be a community hub for all sorts of things whether it's your elementary local elementary school fundraiser to you know much larger charity efforts and just a just a gathering space where we can throw parties and concerts and make life in Baltimore City a better place to live what a noble cause yeah what a noble cause yeah yeah well so I mean you know I I feel like the the effectiveness and what Union Collective has accomplished is is a bit understated there at the end like it it's it's amazing what you what you've accomplished and and it seems like it's probably no small feat in it of itself I would imagine that the the collective side of the business operations is is is is not just like you know like oh it's just something we just threw on and it's easy to manage in another self I mean it's its own space right its own it's a destination unto itself absolutely yeah and you know yeah it is it's layered it's definitely complicated but you know it's worth it's totally worth doing and you know we've been able to provide a home for these businesses that would have ended up in the outskirts of town and moral park yeah in some nondescript warehouse where there isn't a lot of daily life going on outside of the manufacturing and you know we provided another option that's right here surrounded by busy neighbor thriving neighborhoods and it brings a lot of awareness and like I said just that kind of community aspect is really valuable to people I think so what are the things that I I you know like we we we chatted before we hit record before this whole thing kind of went live and one of the things that I think would be interesting to kind of separate is you know like ostensibly we're gonna talk about hospitality right and I I really wanna hear your thoughts in general about hospitality like a small business creating a space a destination for people to go to and what that means right what that means to have it be enticing enough that they wanna show up and they wanna come back again and there's something about it that resonates with them from a long term perspective but you know like kicking it off in the original space versus wanting to scale up and take on this whole other thing you know like certainly they're serviced by a lot of different ideas that go along there so I think you know with that being said when you were first starting out in the in the old space like what was that what was the mission statement around how you created that hospitality like what were you guys thinking about that you built that that core offering that core space around like as you mentioned right like the first and 30 years the first yeah so that's already and how people access it it's an interesting question specifically for us because there's a lot of regulation around being an alcohol manufacturer and Maryland has some of the toughest and most antiquated laws around alcohol manufacturing so my partners and I had traveled all over the country to all of these beer towns where there was a proliferation of small brewing operations and all of them had an on site hospitality experience and that was something that you could not get here in in Maryland so that that was a big part of what we wanted to offer however the the legalities around that were not in our favor so when we opened we created I don't even know if it was 500 square feet less than that a very tiny tiny tap room and it was really not even legal to provide draft beer to a customer on site at your facility so when we first opened we could offer anybody that came in a tour of the brewing process which we love to do we still love to do that to this day and then if if you took a tour we were allowed to give you six 3 ounce samples of our product and that was it we couldn't sell you a six pack we couldn't sell you a pint you got your samples and then maybe you bought a T-shirt I could sell t shirts time so I found myself literally like one day I was working in a cubicle at my corporate graphic design job and six weeks later was on Capitol Hill in Annapolis testifying in front of a in front of the alcohol committee to to try and get a Bill pass to allow for on site consption at brewing facilities in Maryland and and we were really fortunate in that we had enough support and we got that law passed so we were actually the first tap room in Baltimore City to start operating and that was such a game changer because then it was we could really provide you with the hospitality that we wanted and we could we could then program the space around the community that we were in and and provide them something that they needed even if they didn't really know they needed it at the time but once something like that becomes available people come up with all sorts of reasons to gather at a space like that so you know it it really adds so much to the value of a brand and our brands in particular especially when we are branding everything off of Baltimore culture and we're we're going out there and saying we're champions of this city this is a great place to live here's another thing to be proud of that is made right here in your backyard but now we can open up our space to you and and invite you down and not only show you the passion that we have for creating the product but also the passion we have for community and being able to provide for you beyond just this product so the the tap room legalization was so critical and we've just built off of that moment ever since I don't think we ever anticipated to become such an event heavy marketing have that be a part of our marketing strategy so much but we were so successful at it early on and we really felt like we just had a knack for it so we really kind of doubled down on on hosting so I know that you're a huge music fan and conser and that that's a very that's a big part of your personal life so it's it's it's like funny and a little hard to believe that it's not as intentional and that it ended up being kind of like a byproduct of its success because for someone that sees what union has done for a decade and and then knows you a little bit personally like I just always asse like John's like he's a festival guy like he loves this kind of stuff and it's like yeah you know like a part of you know like for me with Pixilated like I'm always looking for reasons to validate like things that I wanna do on the side but like do it under our brella right because yeah you know like I I've definitely wanted to do you know like monthly music events that happen here on a regulation like I really have always wanted to do a like a Friday morning live stream that somewhere between like Kelly Ripper and Michael Strahan and like MPR like Tiny Desk right and have it be this like I know that like vice magazine is like this very rocky ground at this point in time right they've done a lot of like interesting cultural things but also that dude is done a lot of like not positive things as well but I always when that when that arc happened and brands like yours and mine could be these cultural institutions that could produce things to me I was like this is so cool this feels like such a great opportunity because you like you know how hard it is to hustle up your friends to come to your bands local show right like it's tough to do that stuff yeah and I have you know like you know Baltimore I know Baltimore the talent the arts and the music talent in our city is is second to none for sure but the context around how it gets regarded is always been a little bit nefarious and I think that it's part of the reason that we don't produce more kind of big national and international musical acts is just yeah like the plbing's weird here right and I always thought about yeah how like the power of these brands these homegrown brands to be able to say like yes like I make six panel hats but also like I love this this and this and it spreads that kind of I don't know like the magic that happens on our city and it and it allows it to seep into the overground in ways that are acceptable to the city without like spoiling the punch right cause like you can't go over in Baltimore like if you try to go like full tilt with it people are gonna be like no no no no no no like pp the brakes friend like that's right to do this you know you can't we can't throw out the baby with the bath water so yeah sorry I don't know what I'm saying but like after hearing you kind of talk about it like I've got all these yeah yeah snapsis that are firing I can totally see your point especially because you you do kind of know me outside of just like doing be building beer brands but like you know I didn't approach the brewery as being this like pure reflection of my personality sure I wanted I wanted to make sure we were building brands that could last that stood the test of time and and you know I could have made I could have made all these beers reflect rock and roll or or whatever grateful dead or whatever but you know instead it's it's all about championing Baltimore as a city and and our our local culture and so and I also think like you said like the plbing is kind of broken here and so we were treading really carefully on what we could do and how much Baltimore would tolerate from a brand and and so you know I think as soon as those rain started to loosen a little bit and we were felt free to express ourselves in that way then you did see my personality come through especially through a lot of the music events like I'm obsessed with Afro beat music and one of the probably most memorable events we ever threw was an anniversary party where we had the Hundred Year Flood of Woodbury and we had the Baltimore Afro Beat Society which is really like a pickup band that is made up of 50 different musicians from all over every corner of Baltimore music all kind of thrown together to play the music of Fela Kuti you know stuffing them in our warehouse and you know we had hundreds of people crammed in there it was hot it was sweaty it was pouring outside everything's flooding around us nobody could even leave the space and it was the most Baltimore thing ever I mean it was just amazing so quintessential night in Baltimore that people have never forgotten I certainly have never forgotten it just amazing so yeah I mean over the years the music aspect and and those parts of my personality I do get to use this as a platform to like show off what I like sometimes and that feels good but it's also about just knowing what you're good right like you know like for better or for worse like I have an ability to like put my finger on things I think are interesting and then go like introduce myself and like for you know like when we were doing startup story like it was successful because I was like there's nobody that is putting the spotlight on all these local businesses and they're all totally worthy of it but like anytime you shine shine the spotlight on yourself like it sucks so like for us to be like if you let us talk about your story then we get content to build this thing that we're trying to build and then in turn you have a third party that's talking about you and giving you credibility and you can then share it with more willingness cause it's not you talking it's not you saying to your friends again like come up to my band show and say yeah like hey these guys said we're cool will you please come to the show now right yeah yeah and I think that's one of the things that's special and so like my next question was gonna be right in and and this will be relevant whether we're talking about the old union space or whether we're talking about union Collective but when you're activating a brand right sometimes there's only so much you can accomplish when it's under the banner of your brand and it opens up this this vehicle for partnership right so I I feel like that's one of the things that the the kind I think we have in common is always looking for this opportunity for like the triple win like realizing that when you're trying to accomplish what up something whatever it is that there's a really good chance that there are other stakeholders that align exceptionally well with what you're trying to accomplish and all boats will rise in that environment and I feel like that's something that you have been amazing at and it's probably part of what allowed you to you know like attract the best ice creamery in the city like a a historic climbing brand to to come to your space but also like it's why the Baltimore Bike Party you know we talk about these iconic yeah just Baltimore owned and operated institutions right and bike party is one of those things and I know that they end up in lots of different places but I also know that their rides have been ending at Union Craft on a somewhat regular basis for a very long time and I feel like there's so much emotional community like commiseration that's happening there yeah definitely and I think that's you know similar to you is that like I I I also have for whatever reason been able to put my finger on whatever is cool and unique that's happening around town and you know in our in our various markets and and I totally agree that there's there's there's so much more strength when we can align with with some of these other iconic brands and we do find each other and and the results are always you know pretty amazing especially when you can establish like something like bike party where sure they've they they've taken their brand and spread it around town and they they will end it you know any nber of great places in the city but some of the best bike parties have have you know come from aligning with us and they're super memorable and we've been able to kind of take that formula and apply it to all sorts of different things like I said it's really all about showcasing what's happening and what you know who were doing good who's doing good work and how can we build each other up especially in a city like ours I feel like there's gotta be that outreach to each other it creates that symbiotic environment that feels really good to people so yeah I mean there's so much good stuff happening in Baltimore you just got to kind of uncover it and then if we can create an opportunity to put somebody up on a pedestal for a night show and show them off that that helps us all that you know it helps our brands it helps it helps them and it just you know it helps the community in general so yeah yeah I love that I love that so John let's jp to talking about let's let's let's take on the Union Collective space right like so knowing that a big part of of running a successful beer brand is getting people to drink the beer that you make and that when you are able to bring them into your your personal ecosystem you get to control the narrative a little bit right like you get to craft their whole you know like oral sensation around what it is to engage with it and you know as you as you mentioned five six seven years ago you guys made the jp to create an entire different universe like I'd love to hear you know I know that's like I don't wanna leave a wide open question like what about that like what were kind of the the obvious things that you guys were like we're gonna do this because yeah this this and then maybe like which of those were like accurate and which of those were like like we miscalculated that one yeah I think that that would be awesome to just hear about it because you know so for everyone listening when when John talks about Union Collective like it is a it's a massive ecosystem and it has a bunch of really incredible Baltimore brands that span from anything from like spirits companies to a big multi storefront ice cream maker all the way across to like a I guess technically is it a bouldering gym or no I guess you guys have it's a bouldering gym it's a bouldering gym look you know like what came out of like an Earth Trex brand and I know that they've evolved their branding in ownership and all that stuff so I don't mean to mislabel anything but what what John and union took on was a pretty massive project to kind of create this whole zone of awesome like frankly fun stuff to do where like a real ecosystem could could establish itself so yeah this this idea it didn't start off like union wants to create this new world of manufacturing what it what it was was we had outgrown our space we were simply going through the growing pains of being a small scrappy startup that had a very tiny space and a very tiny budget to having a good amount of success in our first 4 5 years enough that we had no more capacity in our space to continue to grow so then that launched a search in Baltimore for the next thing and I had a really strong vision for what I thought that what I thought I wanted that to be Baltimore being such a kind of blue collar working manufacturing city at least at one point has no shortage of these like amazing buildings and warehouses that formerly housed some sort of manufacturing or utility company or something like that with amazing architecture and and a lot of these aspects that I really was kind of focused on the problem was that all of these things exist kind of in their own in their own geographical demographic so it's like you're not you become disconnected the more the further into the manufacturing zones and this is similar in many urban environments the more disconnected you become from like the residential life and we wanted both we really wanted to like bring manufacturing from the outskirts into city center that's what we had done with our initial space be it super tiny but we wanted to keep it where it was like something was being made literally in your backyard and and so we narrowed our search to those areas meanwhile like this building that I'm sitting here in right now has been here for a long time it's been several different manufacturing facilities and it just seems so overwhelmingly huge that we didn't we didn't look at it seriously we yes we took a look at it a couple times but we were like what are we gonna do with we we need 45,000 square feet maybe for our new for our new brewing facility what are we gonna do with 145,000 square feet of building plus all the land that it's on and once we started to really think about what are what could we do with that that's when it dawned on us that there was a nber of our peers who are basically the same age as myself and my partner Adam who had a very similar vision for what they wanted their life to be like and had had set out very bravely to begin their own family businesses and a nber of them were met in manufacturing be ice cream or whiskey or wine or whatever and all of those companies had started at a very similar time as union had enjoyed a sort of initial pop of growth and they were gonna need to move too and where were they gonna move they're just you know they were gonna be in the same situation we were currently in at the time where the only option seemed like these buildings that were on the outskirts of town and so we just put our heads together and thought if we can get that building and have our own campus we can invite all of these other scrappy manufacturers to come down and join us and not only will they have the physical space to grow but we can all leverage this idea that residents of the city and and visitors from outside the city are gonna wanna come and see you making the thing you make and being able to get your full brand experience and that's a good way to spend a Saturday afternoon hey like what is made here in Maryland what is made right here in Baltimore can we go see it being made can we try it can we take some home and and we thought if that that's big and craft beer right like in beer in general people know they can go to the brewery and take a brewing tour and learn about the science of brewing and then have a sample and buy a T-shirt what if we could extend that to all these other industries like people wanna see ice cream being made people wanna see whiskey being made so you know we just took that idea and expanded on it and created Union Collective and we've had some businesses come and go but for the most part all the original tenants are still here still thriving so yeah that's it's been good on that aspect I forgot what the second half of the question was no no no no no ma'am no don't don't sweat it can I mean congratulations to all that like it's it's really it's inspiring to hear you talk about it and you know like having having you know walk to the building before you guys even really started to strike demo probably and and and to see the evolution that it's taken it's it's masterful and you know I I I'm I'm so proud of you for having had the courage to to take it on because like it takes like it takes some guts to to take on things like that particularly as a small like a merging brand in a city you know like it's like it's tough to make it you know and like it's very tough to make it's not like a little tough to make it yeah and and and you did it alongside kind of like as you were making these big level up investments like the industry was exploding right like so I I think you you mentioned that you guys were the first in 30 years and now you know fast forward 12 years and and how you know like how many breweries are in the city limits of Baltimore like you I don't have any idea cause I don't get to drink in bars as much as I'd like to but yeah but a lot right yeah I mean there's there's probably two dozen in the city I think when we started there was maybe two dozen in the state and and now there's you know gosh I don't know the exact nber but there there are a lot of breweries in Maryland yeah yeah so so so as the game has evolved right as the market has evolved like it's become better educated right there are probably like definitive people that are craft for people now like we know this sorry I don't mean to name such obvious things right but as it has evolved what does that look like for union like how have you how have you and your team continued to to stay abreast continue to iterate so that way you're you know you're not ever entertaining right like a a from like a blue ocean strategy perspective right you're not looking at the glut and saying like oh no what are we gonna do we're gonna race to the bottom and instead you continue to say like okay this is how we're gonna set our attack and this is what we're gonna accomplish by it and this is how we're gonna continue to you know it's not like it doesn't have to be like a we're the winners you're the losers perspective right but we're gonna continue to stay active and growing and engaged so we know that there's lifeblood moving through our business yeah I think that's a really interesting question especially for our industry and I'm not sure that actually I am sure that we did not do this execute on this perfectly and and so that's why I kind of like talking about this cause it's one of the things we kind of stbled with a little bit I think initially we were all in on rising tides lift all shit like lift all ships like we we will extend any help we can to anybody that wanted to start up if there was a way that we could give information to make it easier for somebody to open their doors we would do that we had people who wanted to open breweries you know come shadow our brewers and we would totally just open up whatever we could for anyone and a nber of breweries got off the ground that way and we were all about collaboration and just the entire industry was it was a very warm and open kind of fraternal vibe in craft beer and and then as competition started to heat up and the economy was going a certain way and people were spending their money a little bit differently and there's the conser demographic and the conser tastes changed we stbled a bit because you know you go you go into something especially like manufacturing with this like passion and drive to create something a certain way and the way that you do it is what differentiates you from the next guy so then and everybody and when we when we opened everybody loved what we did and we were super proud that we had these very high standards and we only we only use certain suppliers with the highest quality ingredients and we did painstaking brewing techniques that were probably unnecessary but we felt we felt added value to our product and and we were applauded for that but then as as craft beer grew and conser tastes evolved and changed we saw it going in the opposite direction where people were making and consers were enjoying very much what we sort of viewed as a lesser quality product and I was I was sort of had the attitude that like we plan our flag and we stand for X y and Z and I don't care what's happening out there we're gonna continue to plug plug away and make our thing the way we make it and I think we suffered a little bit from that we did sort of fall behind the trends yeah and and there was a lot of internal and external pressure you know we work with a distributor the distributor sells to the retailer the conser buys from the retailer so it was like the whole chain seemed to be pushing down on us to change like hey you've got to evolve with you've got to evolve with the times this is what people want you gotta make it and so so is it is that far enough in the in the background that we can name what that decision was like what were the trends that were emerging cause cause like that's interesting right so like we don't do three 60 photo booths right you know like we like all of these trend like they happen right these trends constantly happen you have to say like like I think that that's fetish or I think that that's got staying power and we've been in this long enough to know that like we're not like there's no reason to pick up every shiny new object you have to pick and choose and it doesn't mean you're always right but you've got to you know like what you guys the decision you guys make was a decision that had to be made maybe you chose left maybe you chose right but like one of those one of those is gonna be your choice and one of those is gonna be correct there's a 50 50 chance that you had it right so great way to put it yeah so I mean it was it was the stylistic changes it was like going all in on IPA basically craft beer equals IPA there's no other styles it's all about hops when we were really like all about yeah we made hoppy beer but we were all about how we handled malt and it was all about the highest quality malt coming from Germany and it was about these decoction methods that we were using to do it and we loved all of these multi styles of beer and really were worked really hard to educate consers about all of that and suddenly it just seemed like overnight no one wanted that anymore and it was just IPA IPA IPA so that's the one thing and then it was going from IPA which is fine we love IPA but it was hazy IPA and it was you know Hayes was something we tried to always avoid it was a bad thing it was a bad characteristic of beer it sort of reflected poor brewing techniques and now I I don't think that anymore because now there's an art to making sure he's the IPA but it's your perspective at that point in time it's where you guys were coming from it was the it was the ethos of the brand and I saw it as an erosion of crap of beer culture which I loved it was what got me into beer it was it it it was this exploration of styles from all over the world and and breaking those down and and the uniqueness of regional beer styles and now we were just hoganizing all of this into IPA and so we were resistant I was particularly amongst people here at the brewery resistant and then it was sour beer well we felt like we introduced hundreds of consers to sour beer with our Old Pro Goza which is a traditional German style that happens to be sour and you know and I tell this story all the time that when we first serve samples of Old Pro people thought it was disgusting I mean you should have seen the faces people make as they had never had a tart sour beer before but we believed in it so much and we kept educating and kept educating and people came around it became their favorite beer but then eventually sour beer sort of jped the shark and it became smoothie sours with black milk sugar and heavily dosed with fruit fruit puree and it just became something so far in to what we saw as good beer but there were breweries that went all in on that and they exploded that because you know it was something that people really wanted but we were very resistant to it and then the third thing is the frequency at which you doubt new product so we believed so much and still do on R&D and quality and we are the smallest brewery with the largest lab quality control lab I think in the state we've invested a lot of money into making sure our beers are really quality and really consistent and the trend became to churn out a brand new recipe almost weekly like it was like some breweries it was like every Friday was a new can drop and it was taking it was taking a page out of you know the limited edition this or that collectors world you know so I get that I I I started graphic design cause I collected rock posters so I knew you know I know about scarcity and I know about limited edition drops and I I there was a part of me that likes that culture but not when it comes to like a product that you wanna spend time making sure is right and so you know the the trend of breweries turning out a different recipe every week coming up with new artwork coming up with new names that it it made it all so disposable and devalued it like I work really hard to pick the best artists that I can that I can that I can attract to work with us to create our labels I don't want that label going in the trash a week from now because I put it on a beer that is going to be gone by next week and literally in the trash so so those were some of the trends that we had a tough time dealing with and it took us some time we we took a stab at it like during during quarantine covid time we were doing that we were we were putting out a new beer we had to do whatever we could at that point to stay relevant and to keep money coming in the door and to keep people employed and I think we made some clunkers I'm not gonna lie like we we didn't have the R&D time to develop recipes and dial in flavors and come up with my best work as a you know brander so so yeah I think we did suffer a little bit but now yeah we've come to the other side of that and I think we've sort of figured out how to stand by our beliefs make the best products we can and we just added a hazy IPA to our flagship lineup to our core lineup but that beer we've been we worked on it for two years you know it was like we did nine different iterations of it until like we hit on what we all believed in so like yeah yeah well I mean and I think that like you know like those like weekly can drops right like new photo booth themes like all like there's I mean there's PR marketing and then there's you know like profitability and serving them you know there's the 80 20 rule that's in there right and a lot of that stuff I think that you know part of the reason that the that weekly drops like blitz that was happening isn't happening anymore is it's like expensive and it's unprofitable and and very quickly you realize that it is I mean certainly there's good intentions there but it's a vanity PR marketing game that you're running there right and whether that's just trying to make sure that you know like whatever the 19 dudes that you have that will drink anything you make and pay a premi for it every week like they have something to do and those guys are important right like you want them you know you want Norman Cliff to have their seat and at the space right because those guys are worth you like you could sponsor them because you know that anytime they're not at union they're off being like I'll meet you they're talking about it constantly cause it's a part of their lives right so it's important to empower that but at the end of the day like no successful business puts the flash before the cash oh I didn't even come in with that sorry that I'll coin we can trademark you we can we can maybe we'll coin it together we share the profit from it but you know like real business requires steadfast gut decisions to stick to what you know and like and so here we are like great you guys have a hazy right like but also you didn't like crank out sixty four hundred versions of it in the process of doing that and like lo and behold that wasn't necessary because the height that happened there like it rolled off you know like yeah you know we we often talk about you guys have been in business long enough that are you you make these other friends with other businesses right and you're like oh like their ideas like so much better than are like we're gonna be here long after we're dead right and you look up four years later and you're like hey remember blah blah blah right god all these like cycles of stuff and at this point in time like we've been through four or five cycles of of colleague businesses that have happened and there are so many examples in our in our like fallen brothers and sisters businesses of where they were focusing on these ancillary attributes and they thought that those were the core of their business and like that's just not that's that's a falsehood like the the hard decisions in the sticking with your guns and being decisive is truly like a critical element and the stuff that you do beyond that is it's for attraction but you can't base the whole business off of that kind of yeah and I think I think you gotta have you have to have this sort of like Long View and like we certainly have always even when we started like most most startup breweries back when we open we're buying these tiny little systems like the term nano brewery was a thing like you could buy a one barrel system literally produces two kegs worth of beer with every batch of beer and lots of people were getting in doing that but we had this like long vision that this is a business about distribution about we reaching a lot of people selling vole and so we invested in a 20 barrel system which was big for a startup I mean now we have a 60 barrel but we earn that you know over over the course of many years but we have and I built these brands like Duck Pen even the even the the design of the labels you know I built them with longevity in mind really wanted to build something that was worth the years that you put into it and worth kind of like having an entire city get behind it and Natty Bowes a great examples like Kraft beer ethos is always sort of anti big beer but as a marketer and a brand somebody that's into branding like Daddy Boes brilliant you know like really oh my god I mean that stuff is still resonates it hasn't been brewed in Baltimore in 30 some years and it still resonates as an icon of citizenship of Baltimore it's I mean you can hire the dude to come be at your wedding for like Mr Bow is like it's like I got married at the zoo and Mr Bow was there to like be a prop for like the photo booth or and people are like oh my god like that's amazing yeah yeah you're right you're right well I mean we are IPA drinkers at Pixilated and we buy divine like it's going out of style but that being said I definitively think that the greatest pale ale ever is Duck Pen like it's because it's hoppy right it's like it's IPA leaning while still being a pale ale but it's just it's no it's no surprise to me how successful it's been and it's staying power because it's a great beer like you guys have really created and and your portfolio beers is extremely reliable like extremely like there's a reason that I spend money with and you know like and I I'm from Baltimore I love all of these guys like I like the guys that moved into your old space like yeah I like IPAs so like when my kids are at soccer practice and at Druid Hill Park like I pop down there on Mondays because it's a spot to go and like I can have a picnic table and it's awesome with that being said you know like yeah like my allegiance is is is super strong and it's it's it's based on the integrity of the product that you producing for all of these years yeah and I'm gonna get that's where we went with this is like there are plenty of places for you to turn like pariah brewing in our old space if you want not like novelty and I'm not saying that like there their beers are somehow lesser than they're amazing they're great but you're gonna be able to go there every Monday and probably get a different IPA you know hazy IPA or you know some twist on it new hops some new brewing technique something new union is not about that we are we are about being reliable being the the beer that's always in your fridge because it's always the same and you can rely on it and it's you know it's quality and you can trust us and that's who we want to be and that's what we've sort of built our brand in into being soft solid like I always say like when we get reviews like on untapped or or some you know whatever some beer review thing with the word solid always pops up like I wanna make a T-shirt that says solid on the back like no one's ever like no one's ever like oh my God this is the most amazing beer I've ever had in my life I mean occasionally we get that but for the most part we get solid I'm super proud of solid like that's yeah that's well I you know and and I feel like you like you like you you you talk about the city right you talk about our city and what it's made of and the type of people that are here in the history of what we like and like the things that resonate here like we've talked about old Baltimore brands right we've talked about like a low slow slow long build to make something that's gonna have a lasting you know impact and like those slap ass decisions that's not how you get to somebody who he's gonna look back in 30 years and be like I've been drinking union for four decades and it's still my favorite beer and it was my favorite beer when I found it and I relied on it because like that you know that comfort food right it's not a flash in the pan like it doesn't become a comfort food because you tried it once right becomes a comfort food because it's a thing that you go to to protect you and you know it's a port in a storm right it's that it's it's all reliable it's the the thing at the end of the night that you can go go back to and like right that's solid right like yeah thing I mean like I mean solid you say that word and I think about a foundation right and that's what you want you wanna be able to rely on a good foundation I love the comfort food analogy yeah like we wanna be we wanna be Mac and cheese yeah yes yes yes okay so we're getting along in the tooth and I don't want to take up too much of your time but I would be remiss to this is this conversation has been so business heavy which I love but I also set it up like we were going to talk about hospitality a lot and I still want that but we don't have to go super long in it so I love the new space because it feels the most like a beer hall to me right like as big and it's got that it's got that whole kind of vibe maybe the spot over on Federal Hill has a similar thing although a bit footbally and it's kind of like English Tilt but like what I love about the union space now is just it's it's big and it's bright and it feels positive right and there's always activity in it and there are people that are there and there's so much space for all of these different vibes to be happening right there could be an intimate crew of friends catching up and there could be like a happy hour for like somebody that's retiring and there could be like a club of Dungeons and Dragons players that are over on the couches and they all got their own space all that being said you've been in the new space for a long time now at this point in time as you guys move until your elder statesman role what his hospitality come to mean to you where you don't have to rinse and repeat constantly right you've got things that you can rely on but also you have to figure out how to keep it fresh right and it's a balance between those two same thing with like ruin your classic beers and also like still rolling out a hazy at some point yeah as you guys have gotten through it what does it mean to you now to make sure that you're continuing to you know not even mean to you like you know what what do you guys think about to to continue to provide that space in the provided experience for you know people for showing up I think a lot for us is to keep the hanity of the customer in mind at all times you know as the world has evolved over the last 10 years inclusivity so much more important representation is important creating a safe space is really important but we really wanna make sure that everybody that walks through our doors feels a certain way feels seen feels taken care of you know our our staff is really good at like they can tell if you're a first time inexperienced beer drinker and you're having trouble navigating the menu and so that you're gonna get you're gonna get what you need from them you're gonna get that friendly assistance on how to walk through the various aspects of beer but at the same time a ton of our customers are not necessarily here to explore the world of beer they're here because we've been able to create a welcoming space for all people especially those that live in our vicinity to kind of get the gathering space that they need to do all of those different things that that you said whether it's a board game night or it's a corporate retirement party there's a space for you here and so you know we just keep hospitality at top of mind especially you know in our tap room when we're doing private events we do host a lot of private events we have a space that people can rent for that and so yeah I mean we're just making sure that everybody's really taking care of we value we know how difficult it is to spend money these days we know that we value every dollar that comes in and if people are choosing to come to union we've got to give them a great experience and a reason to tell their friends and a reason to come back you know the photo booth aspect you know is one small piece to that puzzle I mean you know not just trying to blow smoke up your ass but it's a great product that allows us to customize for all the events we do which we're you know we never miss an opportunity to make custom frames for that thing and create another point of a memorable experience for their night you know when we done things like concerts and even when we take our beer and we put it at a concert venue idea there is that you have a great night and you connect it to the duck pen that you had in your hand so the next time you grab a duck pen you might recall when you when we saw say she she together and you know we saw a great show that night we drank duck pen somehow that's tied together the same thing happens when you come on site here whether it's the food from our man John Carroll's restaurant Carol and Son Fine Foods or it's the the lineup of experimental beers that we always keep on tap so like there's something you come for at the brewery that you can't get anywhere else that's a big part of it and you're always tying that back to like the good experience that you had with us hopefully that leads the my my customer who came to the brewery last Saturday to pick our beer up again when they're at you know their local liquor store but but these days hospitality is more important than ever we are you know people are just very careful with how they spend their money and if they're coming to you to spend it you better give them the value take care of them yeah take care of them yeah and it's a wonderful thing to be able to do that too right like I know that you I know that you you have customers that just your you know your heart must explode when you think about like you know we have people that trust us with important events for them and you know like they're always thinking us and I'm always like like are you crazy like it's such an honor to like you you trust us to like yeah help you execute this thing and it's very important like and we and we don't take that lightly ever like we're always like whether it's been six times or it's been one time like you're gonna have our fool undivided attention to make sure because you know like it's an honor and you could choose to work with someone else you could choose to drink someone else's beer you know but you're here with me yeah I appreciate that right yeah absolutely okay last two questions John these are easy ones okay pen ultimate question let's get a music recommendation from like the last year I know that you're always checking out new stuff what's been the thing that has blowing your mind or you got excited about so that we everybody can go find something new to listen to after this episode okay I've been really into Adrian Casada lately he is a Latino artist I believe he's from Austin Texas he's had a nber of amazing projects over the years and he is one half of the band Black Pas okay so he's kind of the musical director of that side of things and I've recently he came out with an alb this year called Jaguar Sound that I love but I've actually taken that as an opportunity to go back into his catalog and there is some really amazing stuff in there so I recommend Adrian Casada especially if you like the kind of groove funk kind of throwback soul vibes that I seem that I seem to really enjoy a lot I'm gonna share before I ask that the ultimate question I wanna share a little with you about like it's a Baltimore story that to me is so incredible and I actually haven't seen him to to thank him so he doesn't know that this is happening but you know Adam that does all the booking through through all of yeah I'm savage yeah I've known Adam for a very long time we're not like super close friends but we are Queens as we know one another you know like I think when he when his first wedding like we put a photo booth at like the Metro gal like talk all the Baltimore things yeah but last November or December I follow him on Twitter and he tweeted something like we've been bping this around the office excited that they're coming to Baltimore sound stage and it was like a link and I followed the link and it was to the sacred souls and I started listening to it and I was like this is incredible and I shared it with a friend and he was like what where did this come from and I was like oh I don't know so we ended up going to see them at soundstage my wife and James who we started Pixilated with and his wife before yes went all them at soundstage and say she she was the opener for them so we just ended up stbling in and they were amazing at that show as well so then we come home and then they come on to like the regular rotation right we've got a bunch of kids were like constantly listening to these two records and then they ended up coming back to Metro which is when I saw you and your wife having dinner at topless across the street you end up going on and it came over to you so that whole ubiquity of it right and I can't at some point run into Adam and be like by the way man like I I know you don't know this but that one random tweet it started this entire evolution and then right people and like my children know every word start to finish on all the say she she records and all the sacred soul record all three of my kids they know it like the back of their hand nice and like that's important right like that's the stuff that we're talking about that's that is the connective stuff that without people like yourself in there right and you went and saw it and you were like this is the kind of thing that we want to put up and it's been wonderful to watch like the backdrop of this is watching both of those two bands year like they have both become these massive international acts over 12 months and it's it's it's such a delightful part of the experience and to know that incrementally like it's you and it's me and it's our colleagues that are out there and we're facilitating all this incredible quality experience right and and we're just doing it transcending our interest in the things that we loved and trying to show up for the people that we know yeah are responsible to make it successful and like you were saying like just with hospitality and bringing people in and what an honor is to share like it is it feels like such an honor to be able to present that kind of stuff to be able to be like be the guy that gets to go like the second I heard say she she I knew these these girls were gonna be like on some trajectory like it was just too good it was the right sound for the right time the right moment like I just knew they were gonna be big and and couldn't wait to go check them out and put them immediately on the list to be able to have union present at some point and just like what an honor that has been for me over the years to be able to like take something that I can see value in and use my platform to present it to a whole bunch of other people and then be able to feel that that response to it you know to know that it's gonna resonate and have legs outside of that one night I love that I love that so much yeah that's awesome yeah that's awesome okay last question this is an easy one of the beers that you make which is your favorite I will always say duck pan it is such a good beer sometimes I I take a break from it for a while and I come back to it I'm like damn it's reasonable it's reasonable you're not gonna catch me taking a bunch of photo booth photos here like in the after hours right exactly so I would say the No. 1 is Duck Pen No. 2 is Skip Jack I love European style Pillsner that's my No. 2 and then seasonally it's Foxy Foxy IPA red red that's a good one yeah that's a good one that's a good one this is amazing one of my favorite you know when we did that one party still at the old space and we did the vertical photo booth and we did the green screen and we put all the label design as the background that Foxy label in particular like yeah photo booth background was like it's like such good design like nice that's probably me that's probably my favorite graphic design of the whole union oh nice all of them are so wonderful and good but that one it's just the illustration is just so rich like the pattern and the texture and the colors and the black outlines of it all like thanks I love it I love it yeah John this has been amazing like thank you so much for your time and and coming on and sharing you know like it's always a circuitous path with this podcast is about but I always feel like I can at least deliver a conversation that is real and that there are tons of elements of it whether it's where we intended to go or not yeah I think that it's a rich conversation nonetheless so thank you for that I know that everyone that's gonna hear this is going to be super thrilled and and take a lot away from just hearing your passion about what you've done and and what your journey has been before we wrap up let everybody out there know like which which should they do how should they come and see you how should they engage with the Union Craft brand yeah I mean union is sold wherever your better beer and wine is sold Maryland DC Virginia Delaware and we would love for all of your listeners to come and visit us here on site you get the best experience doing it that way you can try beers that never see the light a day outside of the brewery that we're just working on and we would just love to host you here we do a ton of events so please follow our social media concerts have become a big focus of ours so we're getting a lot of good shows happening we have an oyster festival that we do with the local oyster and true Chesapeake brands Maryland's I don't know if it's the largest but it's by far the most fun oyster eating competition that you can witness two dozen oysters and you have to chug a skip Jack and you get a you get like a World Wrestling Federation championship belt so yeah look for us look for our events and support local beer whether it's ours or another Maryland brewery everybody would appreciate it love it awesome well John on behalf of myself and everyone listening and the greater Pixilated universe thanks so much for your time today and sharing your stories thanks Patrick really enjoyed it alright guys that's it another interview in the can for the Pixilated podcast I hope that you enjoyed our conversation with John I know that I did I think that's that's that's pretty obvious that we have a good time chatting with one another I have two quick requests before we wrap up if you haven't yet please take a moment to leave us a quick 5 star review our whole goal of producing this podcast is to share these stories and the more positive reviews we get the more the algorithms reward us for that so if you have a moment and you're willing leave us a quick 5 or 5 star review in addition to that if you haven't yet whether you're listening on Spotify or Apple Music or you're watching on YouTube make sure that you hit the subscribe button that just ensures that each time that we publish a new interview or a new podcast episode you get notified ASAP so that's it I'm Patrick growth Pixilated until next time peace guys