Ep. 107 | Sandy Hammer | All Seated

Patrick Rife: 0:00

Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Pixilated Podcast. I'm your host, Patrick Rife. And today for another episode in our interview series, which frankly, has been the only type of product we've had lately, we're going to be talking with Sandy hammer, CMO of all seated. So Sandy, welcome to The Pixilated Podcast.

Sandy Hammer: 0:23

Thank you, Patrick, I'm so excited to be here. We've had a few little hiccups to get here. But I'm really excited at last to get here and I appreciate your patience. That's the most that's the nicest thing I can say about Patrick. I don't really know him that well. But he's a really patient guy,

Patrick Rife: 0:39

patient and patient, I have three children under eight. So this

Sandy Hammer: 0:45

should have started with that.

Patrick Rife: 0:47

So I'm super thrilled to have you on for a variety of reasons, Sandy, one, our companies are very similar in age. So congrats on around a decade. And also really excited because I don't believe that we've had any guests yet who are who are running companies that produce technology for the event space. And since that's what we do, it'll be a really good chat, to hear kind of what's going on with you. Also, you are first guests from from Israel. So that's exciting as well. So typically, before we get into kind of like the the fun back and forth, we like to let our guests have the microphone for a few minutes and just give a little background on themselves, you know, all seated. Anything else that you might want to mention up front? Sure.

Unknown: 1:33

Well, yeah,

Sandy Hammer: 1:34

I mean, I'm originally from the UK. I'm not born Israeli, even though I've been here many years and feel quite Israeli these days. Meaning that we are very stubborn, and all my work experience has been in Israel. So we do no planning. It's just, you know, whatever happens today happens. There's actually a lot of good stories about that. But I'm not going to go into that. I have lived in America, I've actually lived in quite a lot of addresses. But I think the most exciting parts of my career was being a corporate planner in a high tech company. So I always say I was one of the most frustrated people because there I was planning events. And I had a really interesting career. It was not as glamorous as everyone thought it was because I got to travel all over the world and run events. But we work really hard and events. There is no glamour when it comes to running an event and making sure it works according to the plans. And I think from all my experience of just running events and the exhaustion of just not having the right tools and being in a high tech company. It just got to me over the years. And I think it was the year after that Uber had digitalize the entire industry, for the taxis when I turned around, and I said to myself, This is ridiculous. We are incredible professionals. We are an industry of people just working with pen and paper and lists of folders and everything you can imagine. And we're perfectionist, and I don't understand why we don't have any tools. And I've got 20 PDFs, which nobody's ever working on the right PDF, and, you know, Excel files, it was just, it just got to the point where I had enough. I got to know a great guy that had a development team of gamers, they were actually gamers, developers of gamers. And I thought to myself, wow, if this guy will come and be my business partner, I'm gonna build something I'm gonna spill something really cool for this industry. And that's how we'll see it got born. It was just out of pure frustration it was just out of just have haven't having enough of my PDF files and nobody on the right floor plan and nobody on the right scale. And when we make a mistake with not understanding scale, it costs a lot of money. You know, that's like furniture we've ordered. That doesn't fit exhibitions, we built the don't fit a lot of things that go wrong, you know, ballrooms where we have been promised 400 people and only 380 people can fit in there. However skinny everybody is. A lot of mistakes can happen. And over the years, I've collected a lot of mistakes. And I just decided and Daniel and his team were ready to build something. I wanted something really simple. I actually really just wanted a scaled floor plan. They could put my tables and chairs down and I wanted a guest list they could see on my tables and I want it to be collaborative. So everybody was working on master floor plans Master guestlist no more mistakes. No one none of my sales team telling me bullshit basically that they never got the list. And they never you know they never saw it and they only saw it 10 minutes before the garlic dinner that we'd seated 1000 people already. So all of that frustration. I just got rid of when we produced all seated and then the rest is really history because the community the amazing industry just helped us built it into what it is today. They we really are a product of As a community driven product, it's just really been incredible. Yeah.

Patrick Rife: 5:05

So from a from a product point of view, what like, what are the offerings? What do they look like? And I'm laying the groundwork to kind of walk backwards from there and find out kind of how you how you've gotten to them. Because you know, as we know, coming up with a product, and then finding a place where it fits, takes a crowbar and a lot of perseverance, so yeah, well, I'll

Sandy Hammer: 5:28

start some, I'll start backwards, because it's, it's actually, you know, it's 2021. Right? in about six weeks, eight weeks, it's 2021. It's been a mad year, I don't need to tell anyone, it's been the most horrific year, pretty much of everybody's life, I think what's happened, especially in the events industry, I mean, you know, overnights the entire industry shut down. So going backwards to where we are now, we built a virtual platform in the last six months incredible platform, which I'm really proud of and excited about. But we built it because we had a lot of the infrastructure over the last seven or eight years, which is what we built from the very beginning. So we had a 2d diagramming product that our gamers immediately turned a year later into 3d diagram product. Two years later from that the 3d turned into what we call the real view, which means that we went into the properties and all the ballrooms and everything and we photorealistic took photorealistic pictures, camera images, and then we modeled it, import the model into kind of the 3d world. So we replaced the black and white 3d world with a real view model. So we had a 2d diagram now that went into a 3d model we had it was dynamic, that's why we put it into a 3d model, so that you could keep changing the floorplan with different furniture and layouts, no events the same. And then about a year ago, we added an element of communication so that you could actually have like a zoom like communication with each other in the floor plan. So this was just before COVID, we, we released this communication tool, which was amazing, you know, you could literally share a link, and then suddenly, your whole event came alive. And this was part of remote selling. I mean, we brought the remote selling tool out before covert because it's so ironic. Our lives were so busy, and we were so crazy, and nobody wanted to get on flights and go and see site tours and site visits, everybody wanted to do things remote, then COVID came and shot the whole world down. And suddenly remotes, you know, remote visiting of properties was like, well, a must, you know, I have to have that. And then once the COVID came, we decided, Okay, well, this is crazy events are being shot down, we need a solution. So we took all the elements and all the technology that we had. And we'd already gone into virtual reality, we had a lot of technology, we were not necessarily releasing it because we had a roadmap. And anybody that knows the Israeli culture will laugh because roadmaps don't really mean very much because we're always accelerating agile, changing, you know, we're always doing things from one day to the next. So that's our culture. So we were very comfortable to say, Okay, let's take everything, let's re bundle it, let's rework it. And today, we have an amazing virtual hybrid product that has all our elements of 2d, starting with the 2d diagram, going into 3d going into the visualization, going into all the elements of what we had within our product, and just adding that whole, you know, well, just adding it was a big job, but like allowing thousands and thousands of people to come into the system. So if you can imagine all that,

Patrick Rife: 8:45

yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's not it's actually not not hard to imagine at all, seeing how how, you know, like, establishing the the final event space, in a virtual capacity makes a ton of sense. And, you know, why, why feed it into some third party platform when that they're just as young and unproven is something that you will be able to bring to the table and integrating your own technologies into your own version of that is going to be more successful than having to work with third party companies to be able to integrate with that means, you know, for them, right, like, not everything is iframe. So So I'm curious, with that being said, was the vision for it to be able to have something that you could roll out to your existing clients and really, just, you know, be the answer for them? Or it was the vision for it? Well, you know, like, you know, like, we've got experience and whereas zoom has market share, zoom doesn't have the intimate first hand knowledge of what the ecosystem is like and what its demands will be right. It's all that all that acquired knowledge that you have, right, you know, you've got decade's worth of event experience, and using technology and having all that infrastructure being really, really divorced from one another, and all the inherent problems that, you know, that ensue because of it. So I'm curious, what was the vision for one or the other? Both?

Sandy Hammer: 10:19

It's a great question. It's a really great question. And actually, we're asked it a lot within our community. So one of the things that we did over the last close to the last decade is is that we built this or I'm so sorry,

Unknown: 10:32

turn everything off.

Sandy Hammer: 10:35

So basically, what we did is we we built an amazing community. I mean, I don't say this out of the fact that it's just the product that built the community. But I think it was the, the way that we built the culture of the company, we built it around the community. And today, while they're not all our paying customers, I don't want to say I've got 100,000 customers, we've got quite a few thousand customers, but our hundred thousand community is a very, very big drive in the way that we run our business today. And we run it with think tanks of people, we run it with the planners, which we have about 75,000 of them in our system. And we have a culture of really working for this community. So it was with no doubt that we knew we were building this product for the community. And today, if people ask me is, if I'm a brand, and I come to you, are you going to produce this event, and my reaction is no, I'm not a production company, I never want to be a production company. We're a technology company, we build the platform, we're going to train the producers, we're going to train the event planners, and they're going to be our production group. And we're going to channel the business for back to them, which is what they need. And that was very important for us, when we started to understand that we can reach much wider groups and we can reach you know, there'll be many people that will come knocking on our doors. And some small events will run on their own, just like you know, a zoom event will run on its own. But we built it with production companies in mind, like an in person events. So when you're doing an in person event, for three days with multiple tracks, and, you know, breakout sessions and 30 speakers, you would hire a production company, right, you wouldn't necessarily do this on your own, you would have a team of people working with you. So we built it in exactly the same way. If you're doing an hour event to our event, maybe you're going to produce it yourself just like you would in real life. But if you're going to run a big event, you're going to need a team of people to run it doesn't matter whether it's an in person event or a bunch of events.

Patrick Rife: 12:44

Yeah. So you've come back to community a handful of times and specifically talking about about your community. I'm curious to hear like, what is the process that you went about? To build that community? I mean, I think that's, that is something that we inherently have relied on hook line and sinker in some capacity or another, whether it's, you know, like rejiggering it or reimagining it or changing it up, or whatever the case may be. And we're doing that right now. Right? You know, like, a huge part of our post covid plan is, you know, like it is a murky and slow period of time. So like one of the things that we can do is we can be advocates and barnstormers for our industry and create this place of disseminating knowledge, you know, like we, we ran this virtual event trends survey that you know, had over 600 entries into it right, and we're taking it, we're compiling it into this, like very authoritative report that we're going to release, I think, I think sometime next week is when we're going to release it right. But we've been very much, you know, we've always understood that community is important and I think that the events industry is hyper unique in that it should be and is very progressive in a lot of ways. There are also a lot of elements that make it very antiquated and part of it is because the technology has developed very slowly in a lot of ways and it is very fragmented. And also the other part of it is when you get into the, to the the CMP world. So many of those organizations and the and the men and women who are responsible to power those events have their hands tied by contractual obligations or or grandfathered in systems or, or being technologically like 100% lost and they're right in that that same thing is still kind of there as it was. I remember starting when we started 10 years ago, we were a photobooth company and we were one of the early ones that were doing the open air concept and like what it taught, took to educate people that a photo booth was no longer something that you got inside of and like pull the curtain on. I mean it Years and years of just explaining this very simple concept. And now we're at this place where virtual engagement is important and like data capture on behalf, our whole last five years have been, let's take a photo with platform and let's build it in the cloud. And let's make sure that we can hook it to their Salesforce or to their, like, their Oracle Cloud or wherever they want all of their stuff to go, like it should be going, because that's really valuable. And you know, the only way the CFO is going to keep signing the checks is if they can show data impact from what they produced. So that's been our whole goal. But you know, like, again, getting the idea of an open air photo booth to resonate took long enough, this whole idea, and the the set of problems that are there is even greater, because the there's the technological leap. And now there's the anxiety of not being able to choose to get there on your own time, but like having to get there and be able to deliver and not totally lose market share. Sorry, that is this is a long question. I'm coming together. But I think I feel like we're more riffing now. So I'm curious, like,

Unknown: 16:07

Yeah, when

Patrick Rife: 16:08

it comes to community and keeping it?

Sandy Hammer: 16:10

Yeah, listen, we got very, very lucky. The truth is, you know, when we started the biggest competition that we had, you know, you talk about a decade ago, there was no technology for this industry, there was nothing. So our competition 10 years ago, or eight years ago, when we really started or when I started to look into it was 10 years ago, was paper and pen, my competition was paper and pen, when I went to the placer, or the PR, or any of the big brand hotels that I got introduced to, I went in, and I had to convince them, that really, somebody's paying a million dollars for a wedding, you really want to send them home with a piece of paper and round circles on that piece of paper. And then if they move the table, they're either crossing it out or moving it that this is really how you want to present yourself. And you know, we laugh about it today. But you know, it was actually quite hard work to convince them. And a lot of it was exactly what you said it was the barriers and the and the feeling of them not being feeling that they could to use technology. And they were very antiquated in in a lot of ways of their thinking. But I think that, you know, they were they were intrigued, they were intrigued enough to say, you know what, I'll try it. And I knew that, and we knew that we only had one chance for them to try it. And I and I think that the fact that I came from the events industry made a huge difference. Because when I built the product, I wasn't looking to change the way we worked, we worked fine. We knew what we were doing, it was just about giving me that tool to make myself more professional and to make myself not have any mistakes. So when we built it, we built it with all the elements and the functionality of the way that we work. So when they went into the tool, it became intuitive, there was nothing for them to really think about it was really about them. Oh, here's my floor plan, oh, put the tape, everything was just very, very intuitive. And that's how we built it. And we knew that we'd have one chance for them to try it. And if they got it, that was it. And that's started what happened. I'm not saying that we want every customer at the beginning. We had to tweak a few things. But we watched we learnt and I think that the fact that we were very open to learning and working with them. They respected us in a way that we were really trying to help the industry, we were really trying to do something, we gave away the product for many years free, we didn't charge any money, we really wanted to perfect it. We got we got a little bit lucky that we got some investments that people were interested in us building the community, which kind of like was intriguing because it was a very much of a domino effect. It was a collaboration system. So when a when a venue became a user, they would then invite the planner, the planner then would invite the vendors, the vendors would invite more vendors, the brides would be invited in the brides would invite their entourage. So the domino effect of the community grew very, very fast. Because everybody within an events is not just one person, it's 10 people or more short. So before we knew it, we had hundreds of people and we worked when I say that we worked with the community. I'm not exaggerating when when I say that, you know I run hundreds of Think Tank sessions, we were really intrigued in building this community because they started to talk to us. So we ran tons of sessions and events and we'd go to anybody that would talk to us we were like on a mission to digitalize the industry in something very very simple. Just you know the floorplan the guest list, the seating arrangements, you know, a lot of it develops in time into something, you know, an amazing mega platform, but at the beginning it was just really the basics of what will help us How can we make ourselves more professional? How can we become that community that is up there? You know, with all the other super technology companies that that we should be up against? You know?

Patrick Rife: 20:13

Yeah, yeah, definitely good answer. Good answer. So I'll see it is a it's a SaaS model.

Sandy Hammer: 20:20

Yeah, it's a, it's a SaaS model, it's, you know, you kind of buy into how many events you do is very simple. If you only want to buy 50 events, you buy 50 events, if you do 100 events, you do 100 events, it's really based on, we made it again, very simple and affordable to the community. You know, if you're a big, mega community venue, and you're doing 1000 events, then you pay more for that right, then somebody that's only running, you know, 50 events? shouldn't make it the same pricing for everybody.

Patrick Rife: 20:53

Sure, sure. So I'm curious what your thoughts are, you know, like, given that, given that 10 years ago, there was zero technology in this space. And it has been, certainly, there's a lot more than there was 10 years ago, but you know, I think two things are true. One, there are some big boys, the girls now that are starting to, to, to buy people up. And and I think that the other side of it is that the, you know, like, obviously with with everything going virtual that that that puts a huge acceleration on technology that's existing in the space. But it also means that like the glut is is obscene right now in terms of like people launching virtual platforms, and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, like, knowing that Cvent is acquiring companies pretty regularly. I mean, certainly you guys paid attention when Cvent acquired social tables, I would assume that that didn't that didn't fly off your radar. But I'm curious, all of that being said, like, with your experience and perspective, like what do you think, you know, like, not de facto, but what are some things that you expect to see in the next, you know, 12 to 36 months, in terms of, of the shifting landscape of kind of event technology, I mean, like, we know that hybrid is going to be the thing we know that like there's going to be virtual portals here too, for we know that live events are definitely coming back, because people want to drink with one another, like, for sure. But like, in a bigger sense, like from a from a

Sandy Hammer: 22:35

kid, I can tell you exactly what's going to happen. And actually, it should have happened already. But because we're in a situation of where we are today, collaboration is going to happen, we're going to open up API's, we are going to come together to bring a much cohesive solution for the end user. And it should have happened truthfully, it really should have happened. But I think that over the last three to four years, I wouldn't say there was a race. But we were very much a little bit with our heads down, not necessarily always looking at the big picture. And even though we were listening to our customers, we weren't maybe listening to the larger picture. And I have to tell you, I blame myself a little bit because they did tell us, you know, I wish I had this, I wish we had this, why can't you have this and we were we would always say to them? Well, you know, our expertise is in floor planning guestlist seating arrangements, we don't really want to build your CRM, we don't really want to build you a catering software, we don't really want you know, we don't want to do that. We know some companies that did do that. And truthfully, you don't become an expert, if you build a bit of this, and a bit of that, and a bit of this and a bit of that you don't lose your, your product. And we never wanted to do that. We always said that we are floorplan centric and anything that makes sense with us. But with inside the floorplan, we would build we built a buffet build, we built you know, we built a lot of stuff over the years. But it was always centric from with inside the floor plan and the actual events. And one of the things that I think that has happened now, especially with the big companies that are buying up a lot of the company, the smaller companies and others might not want to be bought out like that to be really diluted or you know, kind of just closed up, you know, at the end of the day, they dilute you or they close or they close you down or they rename you or they do whatever they do. So there's a lot of us today that are talking which we haven't really done for a while. We talked very much at the beginning. Because we were all interested in what everybody was doing. And as long as we were not competitors we were excited because more technology was coming out. And but we then got sidetracked we got very busy and just, you know, keep growing our companies because that's what startups do. Right? You just get very focused, you get very tunnel vision. And I think that the corona has given us a moment to actually talk to a lot of our, you know, talk to a lot of our friends and talk to a lot of our community on the technology side. And I think more more of us want to get together and open up API's and bring a better solution, better pricing, and a better offering to the customer to the end user. And I think that that's what you're going to see a lot of the future

Patrick Rife: 25:13

a lot of that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's always felt, I mean, throughout our business in doing it, I mean, even even the idea of, of building, you know, like a photo booth platform that could scale right, so that whatever Adidas could put kiosks in every retail store, and they could put them with every, you know, every brand ambassador that was going out for every vertical, whether it was high school soccer, or whether it's, you know, like football, or whatever the case may be, and knowing that every one of those experiences always has a photo moment that's built into it. Yeah. And that, like, they can capitalize on it, because that is probably one of the hottest moments of actual real brand engagement, that that you can index, and no one was thinking about indexing it. And then even after we built it, we were we were taking it to big clients, and they were like, we're saying, you know, listen, like we can, we can activate on your behalf. And if we're meeting someone in the in the in the football vertical, or her meeting somebody in the gymnastics vertical, or like, if we're talking about vitamins or health food, like we can qualify them, right, we can we can record where we met them the type of event, like most likely, you know, like, if like, what vertical they're interested in, and what their secondary and tertiary verticals, most likely are based off of their demographic information. And what we found was everybody was like, Yeah, like, that sounds awesome. We're just not built like that under like, I know that we're big sports brand, but like under the under the skirt, like,

Unknown: 26:48

it's a mess. You know,

Patrick Rife: 26:51

I remember meeting with a massive with a multibillion dollar client, and saying, like, this is what we can do. And then saying, like, what do you guys do? Like right now the way that we do it is when we're done, we send you CSV files, like what do you do with them? And they were like, you know, like, honestly, we like we put them in this thing called the junk drawer. And I was like, what does that mean? And they're like, yeah, we never even upload them anywhere. So there's also that whole side of it, where I think as event professionals, particularly the ones that are trying to build technology, is that we end up being really far in front of the wave of the of Yeah, of the big companies even realizing, you know, like I remember two years ago, people started calling in and being like, my CFO said that he's not approving next year's budget, if I don't have data to back up what we did this year, and we were like, finally you guys are ready to talk about it. All right. Budgets still weren't there. Right? They hadn't won the support, and they couldn't talk eloquently about it to their stakeholders. So like, it's no good if you sell them, but they can't take that message back up and get it written.

Sandy Hammer: 27:57

That's a very big problem. And, you know, listen, at the end of the day, our industry, they were We were we educated them. They're not just us, but a lot of us a lot of technology companies that came in around the same time as ours, people that came in a bit later than ours. We understood that this was a community that needed to be educated and, and they were willing, they were really, really willing. And actually, I think it's amazing how far they've come and how you know, really digitalize The industry has come to you don't see any planet anymore walking around with the big folders. I mean, they really did walk around, you see it in the movies, in the old movies, the person, it really was like that, you know, we did an improv when we came, we were we've got very, very lucky and got introduced to a few cool people. When we first came, it was in 2011 was between the week before the sandy hurricane in New York and the headlines read, Sandy hammered New York City. And it's on my desk that you know, some a lot of people sent it to me that there was on the headlines, Sandy hammered New York City, it was between the poor, the the the hurricane, and we came to New York to present this product and I decided that we're going to do an improv because we we knew that if we presented it to them as heavy technology, they just wouldn't get it. It just would lose the whole effect. But if I could tell them the story in the way that they understood it. So Daniel is from South America. So he has a Spanish accent. So he was Manuel and I was this very fancy planner, I had a very big coat on and I came into the room with this massive bag of pens and rulers and tape measures and, and folders. Because I was the planner that was getting ready for the site inspection for my bride. And I kept screaming at Manuel, we've got to get ready and get me the board and I got to get the pins and I took out my colored pens. And I I acted in a way exaggerated it how we really were running events at that time with boards and and pin boards and like cutouts of swatches of material and papers and ridiculous things, color coordinators, we really, really work like that in such a crazy, crazy way. And one well kept saying to me, me, Sandy, we've got this new technology maybe wants to see. And I was like, I don't want to see any new technology. I'm I work fantastic the way I work. And he kept saying it's in the cloud. And I said, What do you mean, it's in the cloud? Are you are you are you Hi, what do you know, like really acting like not knowing not understanding anything, just really a lot of the ways that people didn't know what we were talking about. And we did this whole problem. And eventually we showed the product. And there was, I mean, I can say this today, because they're all my very good friends. And maybe some of them will watch it. But there was some very high level people in that room that had been in the industry for many, many years exactly what you said people that have been, you know, born into this industry and grown into it and are sitting in these very high positions in the top hotels in New York. And they sat there. And they watched this demo, and their mouth just dropped. And eventually one guy turned around and he said, Can you do that? Again? That looks really interesting. I'm not sure I really understood to be can you do it again, and we ran the demo, not the acting part, but the actual demo of the product four or five times until they were like holy shit, this is really amazing. And that's when they invited us into the hotels that we could use them as their beta as our beta testers. And we worked with them for two months before we released it into the market in 2020, in 2012. And that was an incredible relationship that we built with some of these, these these properties that we still have today.

Patrick Rife: 31:40

Well, that's awesome. What is your that

Sandy Hammer: 31:43

was a really, you know, because it's like you said, it was an education, it was a way to you know, if we believed in them, they started to believe in themselves. And they they did want to learn they really, really did want to learn.

Patrick Rife: 32:00

Awesome, awesome, awesome. Yeah, this has been this has been such a good such a good chat. I feel like we're I'm learning so much and feel feel a bit like like, we're Kindred souls in a sense. Like me, I try and, you know, like, the, the these, these conversations for me could go on for forever. But in the spirit of respecting your time, and also our listeners, I also try and keep it from getting too out of control. So this is probably a pretty decent place for us to tell people to tune into Episode Two sometime in the future. But before we go, please just let you know, let let everybody that's out there that's listening know, you know, where they might want to get in touch with you. Or if they want to learn more about all seated or or you know, like how to become part of your community. Please let everybody know how to do that.

Sandy Hammer: 32:57

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm very easy to find. And I answer every single email and I go to bed at night without answering every email. I love reading everything that everybody sends me. So you know, don't don't be scared to reach out to me. I'm Sandy, Sandy, why at all seated a double l s e a t dot com. And our website is the same or seated.com. If you go to our website, there's an expo, which is the new virtual hybrid product and it takes you to a new landing page, very easy to find. There's a great movie there that will show you what we're doing. And come and talk to us. You know, we're just happy to talk to anyone or any anyone. Awesome. Awesome. Good

Patrick Rife: 33:38

wrap up. Well, Sandy, it's great to meet you. Like Thank you. Thank you so much for being willing to come on. I know that there is a huge percentage of our listeners that are gonna just love this, this conversation. So thank you so much for that.

Sandy Hammer: 33:52

Patrick, I really appreciate it. Thank you for your patience. Oh, and I'm glad we made this happen. I really am. Thank you. Agreed. Agreed.

Patrick Rife: 34:01

All right, guys. Well, that's it. That brings us to the conclusion of a another wonderful interview with a another event professional in the technology space. So before you go, if you could please remember to rate review and subscribe, we would appreciate it a ton. Obviously your reviews help us find more listeners that are interested in checking out our podcast, and your subscription ensures that you're notified each time we publish a new episode. So without further ado, I'm Patrick Rife