The Pixilated Podcast

Ep. 109 | Gabrielle Whittaker | Kinaxis

December 21, 2020 Patrick Rife Season 1 Episode 109
The Pixilated Podcast
Ep. 109 | Gabrielle Whittaker | Kinaxis
Show Notes Transcript

Welcome to another episode of the Pixilated Podcast. I’m Patrick Rife and today we’re going to talk with Gabrielle Whittaker from Kinaxis.

Website: https://www.kinaxis.com/en
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Kinaxis
Twitter: https://twitter.com/kinaxis
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/kinaxis
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/KinaxisCorporate
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kinaxis/

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Hello and welcome to another episode of The Pixilated Podcast. I'm Patrick Rife, and today we're going to be speaking with Gabrielle Whittaker from Kinaxis and also from MPI Ottawa. So without further ado, Gabrielle Welcome to The Pixilated Podcast. Thanks, Patrick, we're really looking forward to, to speaking with you. So so thank you so much for making time out of your day to to chat with us. So Gabrielle, typically, the way that we kick these interviews off is, before we get into the conversation, giving you a chance to kind of just introduce yourself. Maybe you mentioned a little bit about who you are, what you do, it's cetera. For sure. So, um, as you mentioned, my name is Gabrielle and I work for an organization called Kinaxis. So they're a high tech ompany. And I am one of three n their events team here in ttawa, Canada. So they're a lobal company. So we plan vents. Typically all over the orld, though, of course, in 020, that has been virtual orld where we've been planning heir events. And then I'm also member of my local MPI Ottawa hapter. An MPI stands for eeting professional nternational. And they're an rganization, event planners and uppliers, and they are a global ssociation with chapters all ver the world. And I currently erve on the Ottawa Board of irectors as the drafter of ember events. Awesome, perfect, erfect, good CV. So, um, I'm xcited to kind of talk a bit bout Kinaxis. because we h ven't had a ton of guests that a e in kind of such large, p ivate companies. And I think t at that will be or maybe p blic, but large, large c mpanies, I think that'll be r ally interesting to hear a out, as well as our audience i , is certainly used to hearing a out MPI, we have done just a t emendous amount with them. T is year in individual c apters, and with our own m mbership, actually, we we had o the podcast a few months ago, a woman named Melanie matouk, w o used to be involved in an M I in Canada, but she works at P ice Waterhouse, Cooper. So t at was kind of like a good a g od chat as well. But but just g tting started, I'd love to h ar a little bit about like, h w'd you get into the events i dustry? How long have you been a Kinaxis? What's that been li e for you? So I've been I Kinaxi for about seven months. Now, 'm thinking I'm one of the very ew fortunate people to actua ly get a job in the ventu e industry at the begin ing of the pandemic, which I'm v ry grateful for, because of co rse, our industry has been one o the most highly affected by CO ID. And everything that's taken place in 2020, that I joine them at the end of April, the p sition that I applied to was p sted back january, febru ry timeframe. And when the pande ic hit, they still decided to go ahead with it, because they ere just going to you know, move everything online, they' e still going to be a need for m role. So it was fantastic that was still able to join the o ganization. And I've been absol tely loving it helping plan ur large virtual confe ence called connections that ook place about mid Octob r where we had about 3000 regis rants. And at the highest point around 1200 people join us live or some of our sessions. were ypically when we're in perso , we're just about 500 in 2019. So that was fantastic. But then revious to Kinaxis. So I've b en in the industry since about 017. So and what kind of started ignited my passion for dance was actually back in high school. I was working on our grade 12 view school production. And as well as having a small onstage role, my backstage role was being the producer. And I just absolutely loved you know, all the organization that went into it all the different details and it was my teacher who suggested well have you considered going into event management? And I never heard of it, but thus ignited my pursuit of being in the industry. And now here I am, you know, eight years later. That's awesome. So I'm super curious to you. You mentioned that you have you have two other colleagues in in your department. I'd love to know kind of what your role is and and where you fit inside of that team and is is your little core team is that represented in other locations are there are there trios of planners at different locations for connexus. Yeah, so we are the core of our team, the three of us. So my title is event specialist. And then the other two women on our team are the event managers. So my role assist them on on the various conferences and trade shows that we that we have. And then we also have our department fits into corporate marketing. So we're a very large marketing department, we have about 50 people in the marketing department. So events falls under corporate marketing, but then we also have our demand Gen stream where they do more smaller regional events. So there's someone on that team that does some events in the UK. And there's also someone on that team that does events in a pack. But really, when it comes to the big trade shows, the big conference says that's what the events team oversees. So I I think that it would be really interesting to know, probably the job that you applied for, didn't have didn't the the job listing probably didn't directly speak to COVID. But I imagine that your interview process did speak to COVID. So I would love to hear a little bit about what that was like, like, what was that conversation like between your your whatever the hiring members, that your your, your higher up team members that were looking to bring someone on to fill this role? And, you know, like, what was that agile conversation? Because that I mean, we're all still feeling it out, like no matter what, but what was that? Like? What you know, like, Did, did you get a sense for the challenge that you were going to be up against? No, I did not that I don't think anyone did at that point. And so as I mentioned, the posting was around, ended January. And I think by the time I had my first interview, which was eight with HR, and it was over the phone, I want to say it was the first week of March. So that's kind of you know, your typical four screening interview, basic HR questions, seeing if you're a good fit to go to the next stage. And the next stage of interviews was with the events team. And when they schedule it with me, it was scheduled to be in person. But by the time that interview was to take place a few weeks later, around mid March, you know, the pandemic had hit, it had been moved to virtual. So it's kind of an organic process throughout the interview of them, you know, also not really knowing at that point, what the job would look like. So the position as advertised, a large component of it was to actually oversee all of the internal meetings. Because we are a global company, we have over 1000 employees. So we have a lot of different departments that will host either internal meetings with staff or with customers, or what have you. And that had always been done out of house the planning for that, because they didn't have a person to do it internally. So that was one of the big aspects of my role was to bring me in and help do that. Which, you know, by the time I came to start the position, that was no longer the case. So it's very fluid on there and of what the roles and responsibilities would be. But that being said, another component of my job was to assist with their Webinar Program, which had been they had been doing webinars, pre COVID. But, of course, a lot more webinars taking place now in this virtual space. But I think as we were all learning and navigating the landscape of virtual events, it was just a huge learning process. And having a third person there in the department really helped. As we were all trying to figure out what is the virtual conference, what components are the same, what components are different, you know, all the different technologies navigating that field. So there was definitely no shortage of work. And it was wonderful to just be able to dive, you know, feet first into that and learn alongside to very seasoned and established planners. So it's just been a an excellent position, and very happy to be working with them and see what 2021 will bring, hopefully with some more hybrid events. Yeah. So have you um, have you been in the same space with your colleagues yet? You know, what, I actually didn't meet my boss in person till after I'd been working for about three, four months. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. So we ended up meeting for lunch, you know, on a patio to be COVID safe and whatnot. But she's the only one I've actually met in person. I haven't met any of my other colleagues in person. So that's also, you know, a hope for 2020 Do you want to be able to be more people face to face? Your colleagues? Yeah. So I'm curious. I'm gonna assume that you guys have had committed to like so many companies to go wait and see approach, right? A lot of people just didn't engage. They were like, we're not doing this. For whatever reason, maybe some was because they thought that it wasn't worth it. Others the learning curve was perceived to be too steep. And now, I think everyone that decided to take the wait and see approach is in the weeds, because you can't make as we're still in it. Here we are, you know, 10 months, 10 months later, and we've got this in front of us for for sure. But I'd love to get an idea for what percentage of your events did have you planned to take virtual? So is there a lesser volume of events taking place with more emphasis on trying to make them bigger, like, what is that bandwidth and and the compromise that needs to take place been like, for you. So to my knowledge of the ones that I've been exposed to, so a lot of the events that we participate that we do aren't necessarily ones where we're the lead planner. So when it comes to the trade shows, for example, we participate in the trade shows, but we're not the one that's running the trade shows. So for events like that, it's been a lot, you know, at the mercy of the other organizers, are they still moving ahead? Are they doing something virtual? How is that looking for them? Um, so for the ones that did the side to still move forward, we did participate, you know, in a virtual environment. And that's, I think a huge learning place in the industry right now is how do you execute a successful virtual trade show, and successful networking, I'd say are two of the biggest challenges that the interest story is facing in a virtual environment. But we've participated in some and some have been successful, some not so much, I think it definitely is hard to get people to visit, you know, a booth, quote, unquote, booth, when it's online, those conversations don't happen as organically than someone walking by the booth and being able to engage with someone directly there and get the information that they're looking for. But when it comes to that customer conference that I was mentioning, that was really the big piece that we had for 2020, that I assisted in and participated in. And as I mentioned, so in 2019, there were about 500 attendees in person. And then for 2020, we saw 3000 registrants, and that contents been on demand. So we've hit almost, you know, the majority of those having watched one piece of content or another. So that is one advantage, you know, of being in a virtual environment is your reaches a lot bigger, especially being a global company. You know, the majority of the delegates we saw in 2019, were from North America, some from Europe, and only a few from APAC, because the conference was held in the United States. But being on a virtual platform, India is actually the country that we saw the second highest number of delegates from. So you know, it just goes to show you that you're able to touch so many more of your customers, so many more of your prospects, when you are in a virtual environment. So I think for us right now, what we're thinking is definitely sticking with a hybrid model to be able to keep having that global reach. Yeah, so it's interesting to hear you to hear you, you know, like, make that, you know, whatever that that suggestion or that observation, because that's been, that's in keeping with a lot of what we have have thought and kind of said on the show for a long time. It's just, you know, there's a handful of different ways to approach what COVID has done to the to the events industry. But at the end of the day, it's it's our belief that that a hybrid model will will be the new model. One, because there's always going to be this element there. I mean, there are a lot of things that are going to go into getting us back to life events, and a lot of it has to do with comfort levels. And that will be gradual, because there are people that are more risk averse and less risk averse, and you know, like those folks will come out of their house more easily or more quickly. But also, it's, I think that it's really underselling the opportunity to frame it only in that light because the reality is, is no matter what your organization is about, probably the core tenants and value of what you do as an organization is, is relatable to a far broader ecosystem with People when you have global access to it, so really the opportunity is is just tremendously more positive in the long run. Because all of a sudden, kind of any organization, no matter how boutique, an organization, it is has the opportunity to really tell their story on a global platform and find supporters and find energy in places that they just would have never have looked before. Completely. And you know, you're overcoming previous obstacles when it comes to travel or budgets, you know, it's a lot more expensive to send an employee to a conference in person. And though you want to have presence at that conference, you can't send your whole team versus when you're engaged in a virtual or hybrid model, okay, you send a couple team members to be there in person, because, again, you know, like I mentioned, the networking just isn't the same in a virtual environment, and you still want to have that face to face contact. But then you're able to have other members of your team take part in least the hybrid portion of the conference, that they are also getting the education. So I think it's only positive, you know, to be moving in this hybrid direction, and you're able to just reach so many more people and companies for them, they're able to have more in there more their employees take part. Yeah. So what about what about KPIs like measurables, that you would have mapped previously? How did those change? Like what you know, are they did do some have to be abandoned altogether? Is it a process of of just reconfiguring how you're thinking about them? I mean, what is that, like? I know, I know that, you know, over the last three to five years, for particularly planners in your position for really large organizations, right? You need data, right? You got like, the CFO wants to understand the data footprint of why we spent this money last year before they're going to sign off on that budget again, for next year. So which is good, right? Like we should all be using data to prove the value of what we're doing. There's no better way to clearly see ROI from any kind of given event. But that being said, I think that so many organizations, were just getting good at starting to implement data capture, and having it move into their their data ecosystem. So that way, they could understand the dollars and cents of everything they were doing. And then this comes in and everything moves online. And like you said, you know, like face to face networking, not the same. And there are other, there are other things that have gotten weaker, arguably, there are probably some other data points that have gotten stronger and easy to easier to clarify. So I'm curious if, from your team's perspective, like, how, how much did you have to stick and move and figure out like, okay, like, this is how we're going to measure engagement, or this is how we're going to measure success. I'll start by saying I'm definitely not the expert, when it comes to that being on a large marketing team. That's really more of our marketing operations and our demand Gen team that look at those mq ELLs and that type of data into deeper effect. But that being said, you know, we set targets for ourselves as to how many customer registrants we wanted, how many prospect registrants we wanted, partners, etc. And we did have our conference take place for free as well. So we set targets based on it being virtual, and it being free, how many people we hoped to have registered and all of those targets were exceeded. In astounding numbers. You know, to give an example, we had set a target of 200 individual prospect registrants and we saw over 800. So those are the kind of, you know, big stats that we were looking at also having people from a lot of different countries, a lot of different regions, different industry verticals, those were kind of the the measure measurements we were using to achieve success. And then also how many people attended our sessions live attended our sessions on demand, how engaged were they during the session? Were they participating in the chat? Are they asking questions? Were they downloading the resources that we had associated with the session? So those are some of the things we were looking at? Yeah. So I imagine that that though, the way that your audience is showing up is See, it's kind of a two part question. I think I'm getting at understanding the working relationship between your department and marketing. I think that it's wonderful to hear you talk about mq ELLs and because I think that that's really an untold story of what success looks like for broad organizations because again, like an event is an extension of an effort right and that being brought back in. So I think that you know what you Like, how close is that working relationship between between marketing and your team? And then when you guys end up with an event where all the sudden, India has just has just showed up and, and and maybe India in a vertical that typically has been the smaller portion in the portfolio, but all of a sudden, there's interest there, you know, like does does that get fast tracked all of a sudden is there is there like a concerted effort by the comms and the marketing team to say like, okay, like we really need to, we need to start taking this more seriously and develop a strategy for whether it's this this geographic region, or whether it's this industry vertical? Well, I think it just makes us more aware, because all our big events usually took place in the States, we didn't really have data historically of who may have wanted to attend, but couldn't. Versus now we can see, hey, we have a big interest base. In India, we have a big interest base, and, you know, these other countries were traveled to the states may be more challenging, because, you know, they're on 14 hour flights or whatnot. So I think it'll definitely be something to think about when we start planning for next year is how to engage you know, those regions, because we want our customers in those regions to be able to participate in our conference. And I think one of the biggest challenge in a virtual or in person event is, you know, time zones, and ensuring that your sessions are at times that are convenient for all of your attendee attendees, and not having just a North America centric mentality, because no one wants to be watching a session at 2am. So just being able to, to accommodate all and, of course, a lot of these events like our customer conference, all the sessions were available on demand after they took place. So at least there also is that where people are able to watch them at a time that is most convenient for them. Yeah. So two more questions. So the first one is, you talked about the sessions being available on demand. Clearly the the provisioning process of, of building out your your stock software and tool stack, based in this virtual world, what does that been like in terms of, I'm sure you've looked at a lot of different virtual platforms to decide what is the one. But the thing that jumps out to me is, I know that big companies, that you're getting things through the IT department and making sure that it passed, the sniff test is challenging, because I know because we're selling PixiWeb into a lot of big clients. And we spent a lot of time telling them about the details of our AWS and, and kind of going through that whole process. So what I'd love to know, like kind of like, what it's been like, to like, do you guys have your set stack? Or is it like, constantly in flux because of whatever reason? And then three, like, What's missing? Like, is there something that's just like, where you you're just constantly like, man, like, this would make our life so much easier, but it's just not there yet? Mm hmm. Maybe I'll start with the last part of your question first, because the easiest to answer, which is what's missing is the networking. And I mean, we saw that in our post event survey, from our conference that took place virtually in October, you just don't have the same opportunities, virtually, that you do in person, those organic conversations, when you're grabbing a coffee at the coffee bar, picking up your lunch from the buffet, they just don't happen. So someone comes out and can solve that issue. I'm sure they're going to get lots and lots of business from the event industry. And in terms of selecting a platform, so yes, it was our IT department was involved in that process. And I don't even know how many hours we spent, you know, on different demos and evaluating different platforms, we must have looked at easily over 30 platforms. But essentially, for us, the most important part is that it had to work. So we had an unfortunate experience back in June with a platform where for the first 45 minutes of our event, there was no audio. And you know, it's just an embarrassing position to be in, no one wants to be in that position. And, you know, at least you know, on the silver lining, thankfully, it was at the beginning of the virtual world and people were more, you know, forgiving of those types of instance taking place. But this is our when we were planning for October. It's our largest event that we do, and it had to go out flawlessly. We wanted to give everyone the best experience possible. So that was definitely one of the high criteria that we went into when selecting a platform for our conference was it had to be bulletproof. So we landed, we ended up using on 24, which is quite seasonal. And in the virtual event world, and we, you know, it went off without a hitch, all of our sessions ran on time, there were no technical issues, we had tons of positive feedback from our, you know, C suite team, from our customers from prospects as to the experience that we delivered. And we also worked with a production company just to even heighten it more, because I think one of the biggest things when you're planning a virtual experience that's different from when you're planning in person, is that a virtual experience has to be a digital experience. You know, one of the things that I've heard the most is, well, no one wants to set on another webinar. However, people have no issues sitting for three hours in front of their TVs at night. So it's not the medium, that's the issue. It's how do you deliver the content so that it's engaging? So that was one of the big things that we also took a mindset. And with our planning is how do we deliver engaging content, and that was we're working with a production company to make the video quality that much higher to have great intros, outros, you know, all those different components that you're used to seeing when you're watching Netflix, or what have you, to keep the audience engaged. And it went really successfully in that regard. And we got a lot of positive feedback when it came to that. And, yeah, definitely, when it came to selecting a platform, it took a lot of people evaluating it, the different components of it, there's a lot more that goes into it than just, you know, when you're selecting a venue, and that's where our IT team was instrumental and aiding us and asking those questions when it came to security and data compliance. And, you know, again, being global data compliance is different in the states is different in Europe as it's different, and, you know, various continents and countries. So there is definitely a lot to think about. So it was a huge team effort. And that was another reason to go with, you know, on 24. That's the more seasoned in the virtual world is, they have all those things ironed out. So we ended up having a very, very successful conference. And I very happy with the experience that we had there. That's incredible. Yeah, you know, we, we supported the all of the the California chapters of MPI did an event back in, I think September, called the Golden State collaborative. And it was a really great event. I actually don't recall what platform that they produced it on. But one of the things that really stood out to me was that when it came to the the main MC, kind of like the main run of show, they filmed it all actually on on a soundstage. So it still had like that onstage production value to it. And I think that it really stood out because of that, because it made it feel much more like content that you were watching and engage with, and a lot less like staring at 40 zoom tiles that are there and being expected to get something from that. And it really, I mean, even in terms of doing like all of the like the sponsor, thank you like all of that was live. And it was a person that was going through it. And so it was not dissimilar to when you go to collision conference. And and Mark Rubin is like the keynote speaker out, you know, or al gore is the keynote speaker, and you're not at the front. So you're watching the the massive monitors that are there in the space, right? Like, that's not that different. And, and you're and you're totally fine with it. Because at the end of the day, it's really that production level that's being brought to the main feed. And when it is a few clicks back from just being a webcam that's up there. It's noticeable to the end user like they really feel that. So it's interesting to to kind of hear you, you mentioned that as well. Yeah, and I think one of the nice things as well as because everyone's at home, all the speakers, you know, it's almost a more intimate because you're seeing inside their homes. And you know, our big keynote speaker for our conference was Simon Sinek. And he did his presentation alongside our CEO, and they did a fireside chat. And it just, it's such a more intimate experience and you feel like you're really part of the conversation because you're seeing inside both their homes. They're not on this huge big stage. So there's definitely you know, some pros and cons to both, but you have to find ways of making it engaging and making it appealing to the audience. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Okay, so last question. Before we wrap up. We've talked a bit about hybrid events coming back in so we are I don't know if you saw it, we we conducted this 2020 virtual event trends survey back in August in September, and we just last week published the the report We built out of the whole thing, it's like 36 pages long. And it's all of the info that that event planners need to be reading hospitality people, anyone in the, in the events, you know, like venue ecosystem, there's a lot of valuable stuff that's in there. And and we ended up it was comprised of 600 event professionals and, and hospitality professionals around the globe, like all verticals public companies, private companies, nonprofits, the whole nine yards of a really incredible survey of information. So, with that being said, we are we're going to launch at the very beginning of 2021, we're gonna we're gonna launch a survey, asking people about what they expect from a hybrid event trends. And and then we're going to take all that information, we're gonna pull it together and put it in a highly informative report and give it away again, because I think it's really important for us to be having a global conversation as events and hospitality industry because so much is changing. And the one of the greatest risks is being super compartmentalised. As we figure things out, and really what needs to happen is there needs to be as fluid as a idea share amongst us, because that's the way that we all rewrite the standards, right, we all have to agree on new standards of operation for our events to, you know, to make sure that we're successful to make sure that we're defending and growing the bottom line, but to make sure that people are safe, and that best practices are being like, implemented and shared. And you know, some of those best practices are going to be weird. And if everyone is doing it the same way, then it's easier for the public to say, Okay, this is just how it is right now, as opposed to feeling like you're asking me to do something weird. And like, why? So all of that big setup? What, what do you see is as being some of the maybe not trends, but challenges, the things that you're starting to think about things that your team is starting to think about when that happens? What are the things because it will definitely not ever be, will go back to doing events like we were before, because they'll paradigm shift completely. I think health and safety is the biggest component, you of course, don't want anyone to get sick from going to your event. So prioritizing all those components is definitely going to be a top priority. We haven't started having that conversation quite yet. We'll probably do that in the new year after the holidays. But one of the big things that I'm going to be looking to is there was just a large industry conference that took place at the beginning of the November WEC, and they had 600 delegates in person at that event with another I think 1000 joining online, so was a huge hybrid event, you know, a big event that took place in person during the pandemic. And they're actually MPI, is hosting a webinar about the lessons learned from that event on December 18. So that's definitely something that I'm going to be looking to and tuning in to to see what they put in place. What were their procedures, like what protocols they have. And I think at first glance and article I read, I believe, a couple weeks ago, from the contract tracing that they did two weeks after the event, is there were only two or three people who tested positive for COVID, two weeks post event, which for 600 people in person, you know, I would call that pretty successful, because it could have been much, much worse, right? With that many people and the disease being so easy to to catch as it is. So I think that's definitely going to be one of the leaders in the industry to implement those practices. And also looking to other hybrid events. They're in person events as they come up, and learning from them, seeing what they're doing and also then working with our venue partners, what protocols have they implemented, what are they doing to ensure that the delegates that are on site are safe in their venue? So it's going to be all the the planners and the supplier is really working together to create experiences where people feel safe, or there's confidence that they're not being put at risk because you don't want anyone to feel unsafe when they're at your event. You want them to be there to learn to enjoy to not work and we're going to all have to work together to create I believe the best safest experience that we can. Good answer. Good answer. This has been an awesome awesome chat. I really appreciate it. It's great to get a chance to get to know you a little bit better and get to learn about you know what's going on and can access and the successes that you guys are having congratulations for taking the bull by the horns and And getting into it, I have a lot of admiration for large companies that are just kind of charging into it, you know. And I think that you're setting a great example for lots of small companies and getting out there. So before we go, please let everyone out there. No, I mean, obviously, you're a private planner. So there's probably not a ton of reasons for folks to reach out to you. But also like you're, you're clearly you're an ambassador for MPI, yada, and whatever the case may be. So before we go, just let everybody know, like where they might follow along or get in touch to the need arise, of course, so you can find me on LinkedIn at Gabrielle Whittaker. So you can find me there. And then also, with my MPI hat on I'm happy to share that contact information. So my email is member dash events at MPI ottawa.ca. And if there's any, you know, fellow MPI ORS out there anyone who has questions about the association or, you know, different event trends and stuff, I'm always happy to connect with like minded people on our industry, and, you know, especially, and you being in the States, and I help grow my reach and network in the states as well. So that would be wonderful. So if anyone wants to reach out, feel free to send me a message on LinkedIn, or shoot me an email. Awesome, love it. Gabrielle, thank you so much for taking time out of your Monday to, to record this interview with us. I'm a, I'm excited to get published, I know that our community is going to get a ton of value out of it. And that's really where we're focused. So thank you again for for your time. Awesome. Thanks so much for having me. It was wonderful. All right, guys. That's it another incredible interview with another incredible event professional. Thank you all so much for continuing to patronize and listen to our show. It means the world to us. And and we really love, we love the fact that we put it together and and have it reached so many event professionals. So before we go, I definitely want to just quickly blurb out there over the, you know, 110 episodes or so we've done we've talked a lot about the virtual event trends report. And as you heard on this episode, it's out it's live, it's free to download. So if you're interested in checking it out, head over to pixilated.com you'll find a link there to be able to download it, share it with your friends, colleagues, anyone that you think would benefit again, we we asked for the feedback of you know, five or 600 event professionals across the globe, and they answered resoundingly and we took all that info and just compiled it into an incredible resource. So it's there for you to successfully figure out how to get your events going in the virtual space. So please, head over, check it out, download it. That being said, this brings us to the conclusion of another episode of The Pixilated Podcast before you go. If you could remember to rate review and subscribe, we would appreciate it tremendously. Your reviews help us find more listeners for our podcast and your subscription ensures that you are notified each time we publish a new episode. So without further ado, I'm Patrick peace.